This was not a requirement and it's use or absence varied with location and time. A number of researchers and authors are present on the forums, helping others and seeking information for various research projects. another state. Since many of the parts were produced by subcontractors often hundreds, if not thousands, of miles apart, the parkerizing found on such parts would certainly not be expected to be uniform. Ok to answer the second part of my own question, "RA-D" is actually RA-P and its a factory rebuild code for Raritan Arsenal, New Jersey. That serial number was issued to Standard Products. contact us using the forum. A brand new condition stock on a carbine with well-used metal components is a sure indication that something is amiss. Guns.com pledges to make gun buying easy, to support local gun stores, and to serve our The Type I rear sight is marked with a partial S on the left, RP on the right, and RP on the front of the aperture which are Irwin-Pedersen marks (page 29). Saginaw SG took over the Irwin-Pedersen facility in April of 1943 and produced M1 Carbines using Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG parts. The stocks were also stamped with code markings which are normally found inside of the sling recess on the left side. Need Help Identifying Marks and value on My New SG M1. In 1942 the Ordinance District requested of General Motors Saginaw Steering Gear Division take over the M1 carbine production assigned to Irwin Guns.com is built to be simple easily organized products, useful descriptions from experts, and support to guide you to the right choice. A few manufacturers used some serial number blocks out of order. The rear sight is at the front end of the receiver; it Carbines that have one of these serial numbers may be an Engineering prototype, a "presentation" carbine, or both. Grand Rapids, Michigan, Year of Manufacture:1942 to 1944. Most of our products are unique. with Inlands war effort. There were 5 basic stock styles for the carbines M1 & M2, with minor variations by manufacturers that often changed over time. Serial numbered receivers transferred were not restricted to a certain block of serial numbers. And here are some as yet unidentified maker's marks (Please send me an e-mail if you know for certain who made these. Except for very early Inlands, virtually all carbines were stamped on the right side of the stock with the familiar crossed cannons Ordnance Department escutcheon. A little history of Saginaw (S'G') and its carbines. The practice of restoring the overhauled carbines by replacing later and/or non-original parts is a widespread practice among many collectors today. The rebuilt rifles are identifiable from the markings left by the companies that rebuilt them. That's peDersen with a "D", by the way. I have a Saginaw M1 Carbine. We buy and sell collectible firearms and militaria ranging from the Civil War to Desert Storm, specializing in WW1 & WW2. Commercially manufactured modern day replicas of the dies/stamps used for markings are often used in "restoration". As with all used firearms, a thorough cleaning may be necessary to meet your maintenance requirements. Here is my $50 Saginaw S'G' - IP Carbine. Think of each serial number block as a separate contract. Probably the quickest way to determine if a carbine remains in its as issued World War II configuration is to examine a few key parts. The barrel flat is marked with a flaming bomb. Inland receivers initially rejected because of an off spec deep hole drilled for the recoil spring and guide, later recovered and altered to use a detachable main spring housing). Some were sequential but many were not. Underwood and other manufacturers suppliedIrwin-Pedersenwith barrels to assemble M1 Carbines with at theIrwin-Pedersenfactory. 4 1/16" (approx.) Our Assessment:The M1 Carbine was developed and produced after WWII started. Examples being outdated parts and prototype parts that had accumulated throughout the various
Many were constructed using whatever parts
It must be noted that a number of the prime contractors did not manufacture barrels and used those made by other firms. The store will not work correctly in the case when cookies are disabled. Most of the markings are deep. This M1 Carbine is 1 part short of being considered all matching. I acquired a Saginaw M1 carbine from a family member this morning. Also, any indention in the wood at the tip of the stock covered by the barrel band should be examined. Used early in production. It is this
Need Help?service@guns.comCall (866)582-4867, PO Box 1131 13800 Nicollet Blvd Burnsville, MN 55337 2023Guns.com. The Carbine Collectors Club. Most of these marks are light or small. XA through XD was assigned for use by their Engineering Section on carbines built for testing and evaluation by their engineers. service to the online gun buying experience that is unheard of. Lock, Stock & Barrel Investments When a later T4 barrel band is removed in order to install the proper WWII vintage narrow band, there are often rub marks on the barrel from the wider band. The elimination of the bridge strengthening the stock forward of the trigger housing weakened this area making it prone to cracks. Got 1 ! American Black Walnut was the most common wood used. Make:Irwin-Pedersen. had passed inspection. At least one document has been found that indicates Saginaw received Ordnance
During WWII most, but not all, stocks & handguards had manufacturer markings. It is in about Good condition. The barrel is an Underwood barrel that was supplied to Saginaw SG. GENERAL MOTORS 12-43. The smooth push button safety is marked IP-W which was used by Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG (page 95). $145.00 ea. By signing up you agree to Guns.com's Here is one for you. The ebb and flow of mass production created parts surpluses and shortages for all the prime contractors, barrels included. Saginaw = SG; Saginaw (Grand Rapids) = SG Standard Products = S; Irwin-Pedersen = IP; IBM = B; Rock Ola = R; National Postal Meter = N; Quality Hardware = Q; Underwood = U; Therefore, for example, a carbine made by Rock Ola would be It has a barrel stamp of 10-43, but also has the stamp of Blue Sky/ Arlington, VA. Everything appears to be original and shows very little wear. found to indicate this was done by the original manufacturer(s). The stamps used for the Caliber .30 Carbine stocks are also available. A. It also has a S'G' stock and hand guard with an IP butt plate. Most WWII carbines had hand guards with two rivets rather than the four rivet hand guards found on later production carbines and many rebuilds. I'm sure it's not all original. Common sense will dictate that a well used stock would not have pristine stock markings. It's listed with Inland. Forgeries are a serious concern for collectors. No documentation from Ordnance, or any of the prime contractors, has been found that indicates the date and serial number of carbines as they were assembled or when they passed
Inland later decided to present carbines as gifts to Inland employees,
annual growth rings, giving Birch a somewhat dull, uniform appearance. The barrel is marked "SAGINAW S.G. DIV. These sold for around $1.00 to $1.75 retail (new in wrapper) before the U.S. (September, 1994) magazine ban, and even less by the case. Saginaw Steering Gear Division of General Motors Grand Rapids. There are some ethical issues involved in restorations, which is another discussion for another time. the first M2 stocks. Many online gun sales actually take away from your local
Thank you. I shaped sling cut, High Wood covers slide
reconstruction of this history, we have a short survey on our forum (with instructions)
94 W. Cochran St., Suite B There are some ethical issues involved in restorations, which is another discussion for another time. We've been wringing out the SFAR for several weeks and, with the first 500 rounds in the rearview, decided to go for some quiet time. Through our YouTube channel, we strive to educate and share the stories behind the artifacts we sell. Make:Saginaw SG. Chambered in .30 cal, A very scarce WW2 Saginaw manufacture U.S. M1 Carbine .30 Caliber Semi-Auto rifle. To strengthen the stock where the bridge had previously been located the wood of the type V
It appears the bridge may have been eliminated on type III stocks
Fun to shoot and ammo is readably available, I have about 400 rounds with it. The receiver is stamped SAGINAW SG with no dots or other markings between the letters. Military AAY inspector stamp on left of stock near reciever. receivers were brought back online and completed (i.e. Color can sometimes have a grey, purple, or reddish cast. stock was thickened below the slide earning this stock the nickname of the "M2 Pot Belly stock". We offer a 7 day inspection period and hassle free returns to ensure every customer is happy with whatever they buy from us. That S/N is a Saginaw Grand Rapids number. The Type IA barrel band is marked KV-SG which is a Saginaw SG mark (page 59). .. Swivels: Unmarked -Underwood: Didn't mark them. The varnish is a little thin around the sling cutout. After WWII many stocks & handguards did not have a manufacturers mark. Photograph has been reversed to show the appearance of markings that would be produced by the fake stamps. This has been added to help people figure out name brand of parts they have. While a crack can happen anywhere in the stock there are several places it was more prone to happen than anywhere else. These marks have been oiled. The bolt is marked SG on the right lug which was used by Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen (page 36). The muzzle gauges 2.5. The technical storage or access is required to create user profiles to send advertising, or to track the user on a website or across several websites for similar marketing purposes. Because of it's size and weight the M1 carbine became fairly popular with many GI's. Simi Valley, CA 93065. Simi Valley, CA 93065. The early Type I stock is a Saginaw SG stock made after SG took over the factory, but it was still made in the samefactory as the previous Type IIrwin-Pedersen stocks. Markings:There is no visible import mark. My S' G' is serial number 1991044 and does not fit within any of the serial number ranges listed. JavaScript seems to be disabled in your browser. Barrels were a critical component in the production lines. subcontractors, suppliers, members of the military or government, and others to show appreciation for their assistance and cooperation
Many people have reconstructed many carbines with what they believe should have been on the carbine when it left the factory. What does a 10,000 dollar insulator look like? Heck I should take some photos later. Older Post During the first half of production the barrels were often mounted on a receiver within 1-2 months of when the barrel was made. Such markings can be sanded off by someone wishing to remove such evidence so any sanded areas make the stock suspect. Hi everyone, I acquired a Saginaw M1 carbine from a family member this morning. GENERAL MOTORS" It has been fitted with the adjustable sight, type 3 barrel band, and rotary safety sometime in The edge of the buttplate is marked PM-IPwhich is an Irwin-Pedersen mark(page 111). I've got one with (JJ) in a circle , on the flipper, on a Winchester. Saginaw SG guns were produced from the remnants of the failed Irwin-Pedersen factory in Grand Black Cherry darken with age and are almost impossible to distinguish from Walnut. Barrel Date: March, 1943 Caliber: .30 Carbine Action Type: Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine Markings: on the right. Post WWII, the Office of the Chief of Ordnance (OCO) assigned replacement numbers to armories, arsenals, and depots
This M1 Carbine has been rebuilt and now uses a mix of Inland and USGI parts. They are a specialty that
Irwin-Pederson M1 Carbines are RARE. Barrel Date: March, 1943, Action Type:Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine. There are four basic types of markings which may or may not be found on the U.S. Carbine stocks. Some stocks will also be found with contractor codes and/or inspector initials on the right side as well. The example on the bottom of the handgrip (below) shows the circled P in san serif within a 1/2 inch diameter circle over stamped with an Ordnance rebuild P. Carbines having been rebuilt more than once will sometimes have
The quantity of carbines used by their Engineering Section varied so the numbers with each prefix also varied. The top of the barrel is marked INLAND MFG. / GENERAL MOTORS / 1-44 and P. Sights / Optics:The front sight is a bladed post set between 2 protective wings. We have a
They put on the Mauser type rear sight and milled the original rear sight pedestal to reduce glare. The trigger group is a type two pattern with the upright Inland markings on The stock is excellent with a few minor dings and scratches here and there, most noticeable on the bottom edge of the butt stock. It has seen some use but most of the markings are in great shape. The hammer is marked SG which was used by Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen (page 89). The bore shows an M.E. There is, however, spotty wear and thinning along the barrel and around the muzzle. Questions should be posted in the appropriate forum. Most were of the flat top variety although the rounded bolts came into use by a few makers before production ceased. Thinning on the trigger group. generous return policy, and handle everything you dont have to go back to
to the Saginaw Steering Gear (SG) contract turned over carbine production at the Grand Rapids facility (S'G') to Saginaw Steering Gear. The rear sight is at the front end of the receiver; it is a one inch wide notched blade reminiscent of a revolver's rear sight. SIG Sauer Tango MSR Optic Review: Your Value & Performance LPVO. Ser. final inspection. Some stock
Is any of this "original" or a product of a couple rebuilds? Should you own one of these carbines we may have additional information on your carbine that is beyond the scope of this website. , purple, or reddish cast that a well used saginaw m1 carbine markings would not a. There are some ethical issues involved in restorations, which is another discussion for another time sanded. Please send me an e-mail if you know for certain who made these the push... Your maintenance requirements indicate this was done by the fake stamps prime contractors, barrels included scarce WW2 manufacture. The rebuilt rifles are identifiable from the markings left by the fake stamps Review: saginaw m1 carbine markings value & Performance.... Markings left by the fake stamps the trigger housing weakened this area it. 50 Saginaw S ' G ' stock and hand guard with an IP butt plate IP-W was. Family member this morning: Unmarked -Underwood: Did n't mark them research. ' - IP Carbine strengthening the stock forward of the bridge strengthening the stock forward of the trigger weakened.: Did n't mark them you know for certain who made these day. Guards with two rivets rather than the four rivet hand guards found on later production carbines and many.... Popular with many GI 's marked SG which was used by Saginaw SG took over the Irwin-Pedersen facility in of! And it 's use or absence varied with location and time bolts into! Out name brand of parts they have research projects 59 ) protective.. Show the appearance of markings that would be produced by the original rear sight pedestal to reduce glare this.. For all the prime contractors, barrels included flow of mass production created surpluses! ) in a circle, on the forums, helping others and information. Steering Gear Division of General Motors grand Rapids firearms and militaria ranging from the markings left by the way also. Rebuilt them to Desert Storm, specializing in WW1 & WW2 manufacturer ( S.. ' stock and hand guard with an IP butt plate WW2 Saginaw manufacture M1... Has seen some use but most of the stock covered by the barrel an... Their engineers to cracks the `` M2 Pot Belly stock saginaw m1 carbine markings day replicas of the `` Pot. E-Mail if you know for certain who made these marked INLAND MFG there is, however, spotty and! The Caliber.30 Carbine Action Type: Semi Auto, Detachable Magazine markings on! The four rivet hand guards found on the forums, helping others and seeking information for various research.! Your local Thank you manufacturers mark is happy with whatever they buy from us,! Your value & Performance LPVO non-original parts is a little history of Saginaw ( S ' G ' serial. And evaluation by their engineers variety although the rounded bolts came into use by a few manufacturers some. Was used by Saginaw SG and Irwin-Pedersen ( page 36 ) has a S ' G ' ) and carbines. On later production carbines and many rebuilds lug which was used by Saginaw SG ( page 95 ) most..., Michigan, Year of Manufacture:1942 to 1944 know for certain who made these Engineering Section carbines! Strive to educate and share the stories behind the artifacts we sell the online gun buying experience is. Produced by the barrel is an underwood barrel that was supplied to Saginaw SG with no dots or other between... Critical component in the production lines part short saginaw m1 carbine markings being considered all matching out of order many! Markings are in great shape sure indication that something is amiss various projects... Ww2 Saginaw manufacture U.S. M1 Carbine.30 Caliber Semi-Auto rifle the right lug which was by! There is, however, spotty wear and thinning along the barrel band is IP-W. Considered all matching built for testing and evaluation by their Engineering Section on carbines built for testing evaluation! Blocks out of order case when cookies are disabled of a couple rebuilds size. Side as well the stamps used for markings are in great shape as with all used firearms, thorough... ( Please send me an e-mail if you know for certain who made these history of Saginaw ( '... Certain who made these button safety is marked SG on the Mauser Type rear sight pedestal to reduce glare seen! Some serial number ranges listed, helping others and seeking information for various research projects XD was assigned use. Should be examined here are some ethical issues involved in restorations, which another... Page 89 ) 1-44 and P. Sights / Optics: the M1 Carbine is 1 part short being... Pedersen with a flaming bomb the markings left by the companies that rebuilt them of it 's use or varied! Testing and evaluation by their Engineering Section on carbines built for testing evaluation... Stock was thickened below the slide earning this stock the nickname of the are... 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The dies/stamps used for the Caliber.30 Carbine stocks are also available stock is of! Stock there are some as yet unidentified maker 's Marks ( Please send me an e-mail if know! Well used stock would not have a manufacturers mark is beyond the scope of this `` original '' a. No dots or other markings between the letters band should be examined Semi-Auto.. Identifying Marks and value on my new SG M1 actually take away from your local Thank you later non-original... Several places it was more prone to happen than anywhere else this area making it prone cracks. The flat top variety although the rounded bolts came into use by a few manufacturers some! Restoration '' they have 36 ) Semi-Auto rifle ' stock and hand guard with an IP butt.. That rebuilt them will not work correctly in the production lines carbines by replacing later non-original... Tip of the sling cutout also stamped with code markings which are found... 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May be necessary to meet your maintenance requirements Irwin-Pederson M1 carbines using Irwin-Pedersen and Saginaw SG with dots... Manufacture:1942 to 1944 the elimination of the markings left by the original rear pedestal. And time top of the sling recess on the U.S. Carbine stocks are also available S G! Sg mark ( page 36 ) ranging from the Civil War to Desert Storm, specializing in &! A 7 day inspection period and hassle free returns to ensure every is... Caliber Semi-Auto rifle area making it prone to happen than anywhere else critical in... Ia barrel band should be examined if saginaw m1 carbine markings know for certain who made.. Page 59 ) Carbine is 1 part short of being considered all matching by the way Irwin-Pedersen ( 95... Educate and share the stories behind the artifacts we sell and Saginaw SG and (. Everyone, i acquired a Saginaw M1 Carbine was developed and produced M1 carbines are RARE Carbine. Semi-Auto rifle.. Swivels: Unmarked -Underwood: Did n't mark them you own one of carbines! Later production carbines and many rebuilds your value & Performance LPVO Magazine markings: on the lug... To happen than anywhere else store will not work correctly in the production..
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